500 Days of Summer
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This posting is a spillover of some random thoughts generated by another thread of discussion. I?m posting it separately so as not to take the focus of that thread off the logline being discussed.
This is the shortest in my collection. At 9 words and 48 characters, it?s one I?ve pondered and puttered with more than any other logline.
Why?
Because it breaks all the rules. It has no inciting incident, no objective goal. And it?s a spoiler; it gives away the ending.
And yet it did the job a logline is supposed to do. The screenwriter, Scott Neustadter, says that this is the logline he used to sell the script.
It worked even though the logline was a cold call. That is, AFAIK, at the time Neustadter had no track record as a script writer, no contacts in the industry. The logline had to sell the script on the strength of its hook. Which is a clever twist on the love story. It?s ?high concept?.
Not only does it get away with breaking the rules, I have come to conclude that it must break the rules. Why?
Because the conventional rules apply to the ?A? story, you know, the one with an objective goal. But ?500 Days of Summer? is more about the ?B? story, the relationship between the two characters, less about the ?A? story, any objective goal they are pursuing. (The boy does have an objective goal, but it?s almost incidental.) Most of the humor and dramatic tension are in the ?B? story, not the ?A? story.
The ?B? story is simply more interesting and more important important than the ?A? story.
This has got me to thinking that a different set of guidelines may be appropriate for scripts where the focus, the hook, the ?sizzle? is in the ?B? story, not the ?A? story. (But I?m still brooding over what they might be.)
Once again, I offer my standard caveat: this is an outlier, an exception. ?I think that 95% of the time the standard guidelines apply.?
fwiw
One of the first loglines I wrote was something like “Two young lovers fall in love… it doesn’t end well” Romeo and Juliet.
I believe short loglines can work if there is a punchline or if you are playing off a theme that’s well known.
On the other thread Nir Shelter said, ” The second one works better, it places the story with in a known frame work for a producer to make sense of ? beginning, middle and end.”
in response to :
“A FBI profiler must use evidence from a fresh body to find?a cannibalistic serial killer before he kills again.
?or:
When a body is found with its organs cut out, a FBI profiler must use the clues to find the cannibalistic serial killer he?s been chasing.”
As I said on the other thread, both contain the hook, and as DPG noted both contain the inciting incident, one is just implied rather than stated. ?But I like the first one better, it’s shorter, it serves up the hook, and it tells what the story is about. It doesn’t explicitly say that “when body is found, FBI profiler must….” but it is implied that the body was found before he(Will Graham) starts searching for the killer.
And also, “However, I would argue that the vast majority of producers would want to see an inciting incident”
But is that true? Has anyone ever pitched to a producer and been denied for not having an inciting incident here? Or has anyone asked a producer what they think? Anything?
Because if that’s the case, that again brings up the question that started this discussion- Why is this one of the few?sites out many that give advice on loglines that pushes the idea that an inciting incident is mandatory? If it’s true then why has no one else picked up on it? You’re not selling the concept on it’s inciting incident, but on its hook, characters, mostly, and then plot.
So based on my two responses, the question boils down to: Do you really need to include the inciting incident? And if so, do you need to use a set formula?
My own opinion is that I think the the second question is the one that leans more toward ‘no’. I personally use inciting incidents because I write loglines before the story, helping me get as much down as I can before I start. But as DPG said, the hook is the really essential part: Why does an audience want to see this story? What’s new, cool, unique about it?
On the issue of the inciting incident in a logline, my current thinking is that it depends on the genre. ?I believe that an inciting incident should be required in loglines for action genres ; for relationship/romance genres, it depends.
I like to see an inciting incident because it gives me a clue as to whether the writer really understands plotting. ? A common malady I detect in many loglines posted here is that the inciting incident does not seem to really set up the action of the plot. ? The loglines lack a true cause-and-effect relationship between the inciting incident and the resulting action and objective goal.
I often end up composing two loglines for each story: one is for my own internal use, to engineer the plot. ?It includes all the necessary elements: ?inciting incident, resulting action, objective goal, stakes, character vulnerability. ? Working out the details of that version is of immeasurable value in clarifying what my story is really about and what is really motivating my protagonist.
?
The other is the one I use to sell the script. It focuses on the hook. ?Like the logline I’m using to promote my current work in progress. ?It doesn’t have the real inciting incident, but I think it’s the sizzle that sells the steak.
Yeah, I do that too. I make one before writing and then polish it to be sellable. I go a step further and make loglines for multiple characters, especially the antagonist.
I’m guessing you feel that they’re required for the action genre because there needs to be a believable reason someone would risk their life in all of their action hijinks? And less so with others because relationships/romance is a normal part of life and doesn’t necessarily need one? I think I would agree with that.
The problem I think with fantasy/ sci-fi loglines is that the inciting incident takes up valuable ?space that could be used to clarify the world the writer is creating. Unless, of course, the inciting incident is the thing that sets it up.(“when a forensic scientist is struck by lightning and gets super-speed…”) But sometimes the inciting incident doesn’t(“when his family is killed, a young farm boy must learn to use a mystical sword which can cut through any armor…”)
And that is a great point, that the inciting incident does indicate whether the story is logically plotted.
?
>>>there needs to be a believable reason someone would risk their life in all of their action hijinks
Bingo!
>>>The problem I think with fantasy/ sci-fi loglines is that the inciting incident takes up valuable space that could be used to clarify the world the writer is creating.
I agree. A definite challenge. Which is one reason, I think, ?why scripts based on SciFi books and graphic novels are easier to market. ?The concept has already been validated and vetted, the ?story world and characters have already been pre-sold in another medium.
I know one writer who solved that problem by hiring someone to render?his original super-hero script as a digital graphic novel. ?So he had visuals to pitch to producers, to literally ?show? them how he envisioned the characters and their world. And it worked. ?He sold his script for a very nice 6 figure number ?(Subsequently, the script disappeared into the black hole of development – but, hey, the check cleared the bank and he was able to boot up a ?new career.)
Agreed that different genres and subject matter may require a different approach, however, I believe this post is, if anything, a strong argument for needing an inciting incident.
Boy meets girl = inciting incident.
Boy falls in love.
Girl doesn’t? = obstacle
The goal is implied but not stated – get the girl to love him.
If anything this logline proves the need for an inciting incident more than a goal. Haven’t seen the film so I don’t know what happens, but the hook sounds like the girl doesn’t fall in love with him in the film, which is an original twist on the genre. I’d say the originality of the logline and? twist are what sold the concept.
Ultimately, do what ever you need to sell a concept – like DPG’s friend, what a great idea.
“proves the need for an inciting incident more than a goal”
I completely disagree. The inciting incident is such a small part. The goal is the reason for the story itself. This logline is a complete anomaly anyway, so that isn’t a fair assessment that the inciting incident is the most important part. If, for example, you were to write a logline for Star Wars, without a goal, but using the inciting incident:
When his family is killed a young farm boy learns to use a mystical power.?
Is that what happens? Yes. Is the action depicted explain the story, say what it’s actually about? No. Luke learning to use the Force isn’t the goal, it’s a step to achieving it. However, do the same thing without explicitly stating the inciting incident:
A young farm boy learns to use a mystical power so he can?join the Rebellion and defeat the evil Empire.?
Goal, hook, it actually tells what the story is about. Would an inciting incident help? In this case, yes, because why does he risk his life to do this? But is this a better logline than the one without any goal? Yes.
To me, the things most important are 1) hook 2) characters 3)plot/goal then 4)inciting incident. Possibly, antagonist ranks higher than inciting incident but the point is that the inciting incident isn’t the most important part.
This post, yes, it has an inciting incident(Boy meets girl.) But what does it have, what’s more important? The hook: “Girl doesn’t.” As you said, a twist from the usual. But it has the two most important things, hook and characters.
Dkpough1:
Certainly the protagonist’s goal is the driving force in?every story.
But is it always central to the hook for the purpose of a logline? ?In most cases, yes. ?But I think this movie is an exception to the normative rule, an outlier. ?In the case of this movie, I think the situation is the hook — not the particular plot. ?The hook is that the protagonist gets trapped reliving the worst day of his life over and over with no way and there is no escape.
The situation is such a fertile field for an almost infinite number of ?scenarios.?As numerous as the viewing audience: ?we ?can all empathize with Phil’s plight; we can all imagine what it would be like to have to relive the worst day of our life, endlessly with no wait out. ?In my case: the horror, the horror! In Phil’s case, the comedy, the comedy!
Yes, Phil does lock into a specific objective goal around 40 minutes into the film: ?bed Rita. ?How gripping is that for the purpose of a logline, to entice someone to read the script?
IMHO: the situation is the hook, the ?sizzle that sells the steak, not Phil’s particular objective goal.
“But is it always central to the hook for the purpose of a logline?”
I’m not sure. The hook and the goal are often different. Perhaps the hook often helps form the goal, or something the characters use to achieve that goal.
The hook of many fantasy stories is often the magic itself. What if the Greek gods were alive and people among us were their children? What if there was a detective in Chicago who was a real wizard? Things like that.
Other examples include things like, in the movie Hancock, the hook is pretty much “Drunken Superman” and his other characteristics which differentiate him from Clark Kent.
But yes, sometimes the hook is just as simple as a twist on a familiar plot.
Groundhog Day? Yeah, the hook is the situation.
Not enough there to give any hook. I have a logline like this I am working to broaden. Otherwise, it’s just the same ol story that’s been done 100000000000000 times.
“Not enough there to give any hook.”
As mentioned before on this thread, the hook is simple. It’s just a deviation from the normal “Boy meets girl. They both fall in love.” , because the girl doesn’t. It’s enough of a hook to get Hollywood interested.