Unkillable
kbfilmworksSamurai
A bounty hunter arriving from an alternate reality holds bar patrons hostage in order to trap a fugitive killer but soon discovers one of the hostages may be more dangerous than the expected fugitive.
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Would appreciate fresh eyes on this reworked logline.
Would appreciate fresh eyes on this reworked logline.
I am not well versed yet but I have read to avoid using nouns and titles twice. i.e.; Fugitive, and Hostage.
I am not well versed yet but I have read to avoid using nouns and titles twice. i.e.; Fugitive, and Hostage.
Hate to recycle what I’ve said before, kbfilmworks, but this version seems to be the setup, not the plot. The plot is about what he does — must do — after the unexpected happens.
I don’t know if you’ve done a draft, but as I imagine it, “…soon discovers one of the hostages may be more dangerous than the expected fugitive.” would occur around page 30 or so. It seems to be the event that pivots the story in a new direction, on a new trajectory that would constitute the rest of the story. In that case, everything before that moment would be setup.
Hate to recycle what I’ve said before, kbfilmworks, but this version seems to be the setup, not the plot. The plot is about what he does — must do — after the unexpected happens.
I don’t know if you’ve done a draft, but as I imagine it, “…soon discovers one of the hostages may be more dangerous than the expected fugitive.” would occur around page 30 or so. It seems to be the event that pivots the story in a new direction, on a new trajectory that would constitute the rest of the story. In that case, everything before that moment would be setup.
True.
I think it’s difficult when commenting on a logline to separate the feeling of natural curiosity about a story or concept and wanting to know more – on the one hand – and thinking that the logline offers insufficient detail.
That’s not to say I disagree with dpg’s comments about the logline only addresssing the setup. He’s right. The problem with continually re-writing a logline is being blinded to the forest by the trees. And then with each additional comment – often about story or concept – the detail increases until the logline becomes cluttered and ineffective.
My personal approach when commenting on other writer’s efforts is to attempt to rewrite the logline – with added sizzle (dpg’s word) – on the basis of the original logline without seeking additional info. Is this more useful than seeking additional info? Maybe we could discuss it.
“A bounty hunter arriving from an alternate reality holds bar patrons hostage in order to trap a fugitive but when a killer able to manipulate time and reality shows up, the hunter becomes the hunted”.
True.
I think it’s difficult when commenting on a logline to separate the feeling of natural curiosity about a story or concept and wanting to know more – on the one hand – and thinking that the logline offers insufficient detail.
That’s not to say I disagree with dpg’s comments about the logline only addresssing the setup. He’s right. The problem with continually re-writing a logline is being blinded to the forest by the trees. And then with each additional comment – often about story or concept – the detail increases until the logline becomes cluttered and ineffective.
My personal approach when commenting on other writer’s efforts is to attempt to rewrite the logline – with added sizzle (dpg’s word) – on the basis of the original logline without seeking additional info. Is this more useful than seeking additional info? Maybe we could discuss it.
“A bounty hunter arriving from an alternate reality holds bar patrons hostage in order to trap a fugitive but when a killer able to manipulate time and reality shows up, the hunter becomes the hunted”.
I have had this question for a while. Why would the killer care about the hostages?
If you are looking to reduce words “arriving” could be dropped. The “alternate reality” covers arrival.
I think everyone is coming from the same point. It is a great scenario, but why are we here watching these people? I know it is in the story. Can you get the essence of why into the logline?
I once read the Titanic logline, it was something like “a girl from high society trying to escape her controlling fianc? falls in love with a penny less artist on board Titanic”.
All focused on something to care about.
I have had this question for a while. Why would the killer care about the hostages?
If you are looking to reduce words “arriving” could be dropped. The “alternate reality” covers arrival.
I think everyone is coming from the same point. It is a great scenario, but why are we here watching these people? I know it is in the story. Can you get the essence of why into the logline?
I once read the Titanic logline, it was something like “a girl from high society trying to escape her controlling fianc? falls in love with a penny less artist on board Titanic”.
All focused on something to care about.
A bounty hunter holds bar patrons hostage in order to trap a fugitive but when a killer able to manipulate time and reality shows up, the hunter becomes the hunted.
While “arriving from the alternate reality” may be part of the story, I don’t see how it causally connects to the arrival of the killer for the purpose of the logline or anything else that ensues in the plot.
The bounty hunter is not in his alternate reality; he’s in the reality of the bar where he becomes the hunter instead of the hunted. That, as far as I can see, is the plot.
A bounty hunter holds bar patrons hostage in order to trap a fugitive but when a killer able to manipulate time and reality shows up, the hunter becomes the hunted.
While “arriving from the alternate reality” may be part of the story, I don’t see how it causally connects to the arrival of the killer for the purpose of the logline or anything else that ensues in the plot.
The bounty hunter is not in his alternate reality; he’s in the reality of the bar where he becomes the hunter instead of the hunted. That, as far as I can see, is the plot.
Hi CraigD,dpg
The killer is on the run from the alternate universe and is on a mission to merge with his prime universe self because the two of them cannot exist in the same universe – it’s a paradox. The doppelganger is one of the hostages.
So, on the basis of something to care about:
“A bounty hunter from an alternate universe fights to stop a killer able to manipulate time and reality from taking over the body and identity of an innocent man”.
Hi CraigD,dpg
The killer is on the run from the alternate universe and is on a mission to merge with his prime universe self because the two of them cannot exist in the same universe – it’s a paradox. The doppelganger is one of the hostages.
So, on the basis of something to care about:
“A bounty hunter from an alternate universe fights to stop a killer able to manipulate time and reality from taking over the body and identity of an innocent man”.
“A bounty hunter fights to save an innocent man from losing his body and identity to his doppelganger, a killer from an alternate universe able to manipulate time and reality”.
“A bounty hunter fights to save an innocent man from losing his body and identity to his doppelganger, a killer from an alternate universe able to manipulate time and reality”.
If you’re going with the “innocent man” scenario, why can;t the bounty hunter turn out to be the doppelganger? Come to find out, he’s confronting his worst enemy — his (complementary as in yin/yang) self?
If you’re going with the “innocent man” scenario, why can;t the bounty hunter turn out to be the doppelganger? Come to find out, he’s confronting his worst enemy — his (complementary as in yin/yang) self?
dpg, I’m not sure I follow your train of thought. I’ve just tried to do what CraigD suggested and brought the victim into the logline as ‘something to care about’. Maybe it wasn’t clear in previous iterations that the prime universe double is just an innocent average Joe – what you describe as the stakes character.
dpg, I’m not sure I follow your train of thought. I’ve just tried to do what CraigD suggested and brought the victim into the logline as ‘something to care about’. Maybe it wasn’t clear in previous iterations that the prime universe double is just an innocent average Joe – what you describe as the stakes character.
My point is that if you want to play around with the paradox of a doppelganger relationship, go further.
In fact, go the whole nine yards: make his greatest foe a female who threatens to “steal his body and identity”. She threatens to literally be the kiss of death for him. [An interesting twist on Aristophanes speech in Plato’s Symposium as well as the archetypal/contrasexual psychology of Carl Jung, btw.]
If the hunter is going to become the hunted, why not?
My point is that if you want to play around with the paradox of a doppelganger relationship, go further.
In fact, go the whole nine yards: make his greatest foe a female who threatens to “steal his body and identity”. She threatens to literally be the kiss of death for him. [An interesting twist on Aristophanes speech in Plato’s Symposium as well as the archetypal/contrasexual psychology of Carl Jung, btw.]
If the hunter is going to become the hunted, why not?
That’s way too much thematic baggage. My idea of movies is memorable images and emotions. I do love abstraction in movies but movies written around the desire to elucidate a theme? Sorry but I’m a storyteller not an intellectual. That aside, many thanks, I’m now really happy with the logline.
That’s way too much thematic baggage. My idea of movies is memorable images and emotions. I do love abstraction in movies but movies written around the desire to elucidate a theme? Sorry but I’m a storyteller not an intellectual. That aside, many thanks, I’m now really happy with the logline.
Not my point. We’re obviously not on the same frequency on this. So it goes. It’s your story.
Not my point. We’re obviously not on the same frequency on this. So it goes. It’s your story.
Yeah but dpg, I don’t think I’ve told you enough of the story via the logline. I think it’s a bit like the scoreline of a football match. You know who won, who scored and in which minute but the game is often not a reflection of the result.
Yeah but dpg, I don’t think I’ve told you enough of the story via the logline. I think it’s a bit like the scoreline of a football match. You know who won, who scored and in which minute but the game is often not a reflection of the result.
I’m still have trouble getting a handle on your concept. (And ditto with you on the angle I pitched.) A fundamental problem is that the world want to dramatize only exists in your head. That’s not your fault, of course. It’s the nature of the challenge frequently presented by sci-fi and fantasy genres.
The reference to Plato and Jung was a mistake for the purposes of this thread. But at least I can point to cultural and literary references for my version as a hook on which to hang the idea. I can say “It’s something like this” to help people grasp the concept.
Is there a pop culture or literary reference you can point to and say: “this story is something like this” that will help me and others to grasp your concept?
You have in mind the notion of a doppelganger. That’s an excellent idea. It’s been used a number of times in stories and movies. Now, why is that? What is the hook in the idea of a doppelganger that makes people want to write about it? The hook that makes YOU want to use it in your story?
It seems to me that the hook for the writer (and audience) is the situation of a person meeting his mirror opposite. That is the only aspect of your story that hooks my interest (in case you hadn’t noticed). All the other powers and abilities maybe be Interesting — but I don’t think they are as compelling as the idea of a High Noon showdown between a protagonist and antagonist who are mirror opposites.
So why do you want to make the antagonist one part in the doppelganger relation —but give the other part to a supporting character?
If the core conceit of your story is that of a doppelganger, than it seems to me that the protagonist ought to be part of the core conceit, the character who is confronted, threatened by his doppelganger. Not a supporting character. IMHO, it’s too potent of a dramatic technique to assign it to a supporting character. The protagonist should own it, and the central conflict that results.
(And if the doppelganger is not the central gimmick, imho, it ought to be.)
The central conceit of the “Star Wars” franchise (and you’re hoping for a franchise out of your idea, are you not?) is the Force. Which George Lucas did not assign to a supporting character, not to Han Solo, not to Chewbacca, not to the droids, not even to Princess Leia (a sexist lapse, imho). He assigned the Force — all its potential power and all its potential danger– to the protagonist, Luke Skywalker. And to his mortal adversary, Darth Vader.
The Force is the Big Idea, the gimmick, the organizing principle, the hook, the sizzle AND the steak for the entire “Star Wars” franchise; It’s the gotta-have in every plot of every episode.
You wanna build a franchise? What is your Big Idea, your central gimmick, akin to the Force, the gotta-have that will be central to every episode of this franchise?
I’m still have trouble getting a handle on your concept. (And ditto with you on the angle I pitched.) A fundamental problem is that the world want to dramatize only exists in your head. That’s not your fault, of course. It’s the nature of the challenge frequently presented by sci-fi and fantasy genres.
The reference to Plato and Jung was a mistake for the purposes of this thread. But at least I can point to cultural and literary references for my version as a hook on which to hang the idea. I can say “It’s something like this” to help people grasp the concept.
Is there a pop culture or literary reference you can point to and say: “this story is something like this” that will help me and others to grasp your concept?
You have in mind the notion of a doppelganger. That’s an excellent idea. It’s been used a number of times in stories and movies. Now, why is that? What is the hook in the idea of a doppelganger that makes people want to write about it? The hook that makes YOU want to use it in your story?
It seems to me that the hook for the writer (and audience) is the situation of a person meeting his mirror opposite. That is the only aspect of your story that hooks my interest (in case you hadn’t noticed). All the other powers and abilities maybe be Interesting — but I don’t think they are as compelling as the idea of a High Noon showdown between a protagonist and antagonist who are mirror opposites.
So why do you want to make the antagonist one part in the doppelganger relation —but give the other part to a supporting character?
If the core conceit of your story is that of a doppelganger, than it seems to me that the protagonist ought to be part of the core conceit, the character who is confronted, threatened by his doppelganger. Not a supporting character. IMHO, it’s too potent of a dramatic technique to assign it to a supporting character. The protagonist should own it, and the central conflict that results.
(And if the doppelganger is not the central gimmick, imho, it ought to be.)
The central conceit of the “Star Wars” franchise (and you’re hoping for a franchise out of your idea, are you not?) is the Force. Which George Lucas did not assign to a supporting character, not to Han Solo, not to Chewbacca, not to the droids, not even to Princess Leia (a sexist lapse, imho). He assigned the Force — all its potential power and all its potential danger– to the protagonist, Luke Skywalker. And to his mortal adversary, Darth Vader.
The Force is the Big Idea, the gimmick, the organizing principle, the hook, the sizzle AND the steak for the entire “Star Wars” franchise; It’s the gotta-have in every plot of every episode.
You wanna build a franchise? What is your Big Idea, your central gimmick, akin to the Force, the gotta-have that will be central to every episode of this franchise?
I’m not thinking about building a franchise. This project was conceived as a Lo-fi Sci-Fi movie. Creativity is channelled by practical production considerations i.e. one main location and three minor, no FX, no production design, no big name actors, etc. So we’re talking about a less than $200k production budget. A lot of effort is going into working out compensatory mechanisms to overcome issues such as the absence of a relationship storyline, no character arc, etc.
Talking about similar movies I’d say it’s along the lines of ‘Run Lola, run’ in terms of Time manipulation and ‘Total Recall’ in terms of it being about illusion and reality.
I’d say the main subject of the project is Time Manipulation – as in temporal loops, flashbacks, flash-forwards, time travel, temporal expansion, compression, etc.
The big idea here is how to make a film that relies on time manipulation when you can’t afford to hire more than one or two locations.
I’m not thinking about building a franchise. This project was conceived as a Lo-fi Sci-Fi movie. Creativity is channelled by practical production considerations i.e. one main location and three minor, no FX, no production design, no big name actors, etc. So we’re talking about a less than $200k production budget. A lot of effort is going into working out compensatory mechanisms to overcome issues such as the absence of a relationship storyline, no character arc, etc.
Talking about similar movies I’d say it’s along the lines of ‘Run Lola, run’ in terms of Time manipulation and ‘Total Recall’ in terms of it being about illusion and reality.
I’d say the main subject of the project is Time Manipulation – as in temporal loops, flashbacks, flash-forwards, time travel, temporal expansion, compression, etc.
The big idea here is how to make a film that relies on time manipulation when you can’t afford to hire more than one or two locations.
Okay, time manipulation.
What is your protagonist’s character arc? After all the manipulation of time, back and forth, In what way is he is a different man at FADE OUT: than he was at FADE IN:?
Okay, time manipulation.
What is your protagonist’s character arc? After all the manipulation of time, back and forth, In what way is he is a different man at FADE OUT: than he was at FADE IN:?
dpg, I always appreciate what you have to say even when I disagree but I suspect your love for screenwriting dogma might be stifling your creativity.
To address your question: not every protagonist needs a character arc or a hero’s journey. And not every story needs a theme or a message. Far more essential is good strong conflict involving interesting characters.
There’s nothing that stifles genuine creativity more than rules. Artists learn rules and build careers disregarding them.
dpg, I always appreciate what you have to say even when I disagree but I suspect your love for screenwriting dogma might be stifling your creativity.
To address your question: not every protagonist needs a character arc or a hero’s journey. And not every story needs a theme or a message. Far more essential is good strong conflict involving interesting characters.
There’s nothing that stifles genuine creativity more than rules. Artists learn rules and build careers disregarding them.
Translation: there’s no character arc.
>>>not every protagonist needs a character arc or a hero?s journey. And not every story needs a theme or a message. Far more essential is good strong conflict involving interesting characters.
But does it necessarily follow that an arc makes a character uninteresting? I would say: it depends.
I do not slavishly adhere to the paradigm of the “hero’s journey”. In fact, I think the the pop interpretation of the source writings (principally Jung and Campbell) is defective.
I don’t believe that the protagonist must always have a character arc. Sometimes, it can be a supporting character who changes. And, yes, sometimes there can be no character arc.
Last night I viewed a wonderful European film about a mother and a son and their very conflicted relationship. There wasn’t much action. There is a minor character arc in the first half — but by the end of the story the two have reverted to their initial character state. They learned no thematic lessons, accomplished no objective goal. In that story, that creative choice worked; I was very moved by the denouement.
In my unwritten book of rules, it takes more creative chops to pull off a believable character arc than it does an action packed plot. (Like you, I suspect), I have gagged at character arcs patched into stories for no other reason than blind adherence to this or that paradigm.
That said, my personal preference tilts toward stories with credible character arcs.
Translation: there’s no character arc.
>>>not every protagonist needs a character arc or a hero?s journey. And not every story needs a theme or a message. Far more essential is good strong conflict involving interesting characters.
But does it necessarily follow that an arc makes a character uninteresting? I would say: it depends.
I do not slavishly adhere to the paradigm of the “hero’s journey”. In fact, I think the the pop interpretation of the source writings (principally Jung and Campbell) is defective.
I don’t believe that the protagonist must always have a character arc. Sometimes, it can be a supporting character who changes. And, yes, sometimes there can be no character arc.
Last night I viewed a wonderful European film about a mother and a son and their very conflicted relationship. There wasn’t much action. There is a minor character arc in the first half — but by the end of the story the two have reverted to their initial character state. They learned no thematic lessons, accomplished no objective goal. In that story, that creative choice worked; I was very moved by the denouement.
In my unwritten book of rules, it takes more creative chops to pull off a believable character arc than it does an action packed plot. (Like you, I suspect), I have gagged at character arcs patched into stories for no other reason than blind adherence to this or that paradigm.
That said, my personal preference tilts toward stories with credible character arcs.
You’re logline and concept, whilst aiming to titillate by way of describing a ‘time/ alternate reality’ concept, only comes across as confusing and unclear, and I’m left with a zero care factor because I have no reason to care about the plight of your main character. As others have said — the higher the sci-fi concept the greater the need to focus on the human struggle/ element in a logline… this is what ultimately audiences latch onto, imo anyway — even if they don’t realise it consciously… so — if you want the logline to be more engaging focus on simplifying it — be clearer with what the main character HAS to do, ensuring we understand WHY they have to do it, and less on the sci-fi elements. Below is obviously just an example, and not supposed to be replicating your main plot line:
A multiverse hopping bounty hunter must uncover a shape shifting psychopathic killer amidst the patrons of a bar before it escapes onto the streets London”
Also – in regards to …”There’s nothing that stifles creativity more than rules…” — imo, I think the opposite is in fact true. The rules in fact allow you to channel your ideas into something that is communicable on a large scale. Sure — the greatest film makers are known for breaking rules — but I can’t think of any that started out as rule breakers… they mastered the craft/ rules before they broke them — or, you have to fully comprehend the rule, understand why it’s a rule in the first place, before you can break it (and so, fully understand the implication of breaking it).
Anyway — best of luck with it.
T.
You’re logline and concept, whilst aiming to titillate by way of describing a ‘time/ alternate reality’ concept, only comes across as confusing and unclear, and I’m left with a zero care factor because I have no reason to care about the plight of your main character. As others have said — the higher the sci-fi concept the greater the need to focus on the human struggle/ element in a logline… this is what ultimately audiences latch onto, imo anyway — even if they don’t realise it consciously… so — if you want the logline to be more engaging focus on simplifying it — be clearer with what the main character HAS to do, ensuring we understand WHY they have to do it, and less on the sci-fi elements. Below is obviously just an example, and not supposed to be replicating your main plot line:
A multiverse hopping bounty hunter must uncover a shape shifting psychopathic killer amidst the patrons of a bar before it escapes onto the streets London”
Also – in regards to …”There’s nothing that stifles creativity more than rules…” — imo, I think the opposite is in fact true. The rules in fact allow you to channel your ideas into something that is communicable on a large scale. Sure — the greatest film makers are known for breaking rules — but I can’t think of any that started out as rule breakers… they mastered the craft/ rules before they broke them — or, you have to fully comprehend the rule, understand why it’s a rule in the first place, before you can break it (and so, fully understand the implication of breaking it).
Anyway — best of luck with it.
T.
you’re=your
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you’re=your
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Tony Edward, you obviously did not read the entire thread before making your comment. So why did you bother?
Tony Edward, you obviously did not read the entire thread before making your comment. So why did you bother?
I read the entire thread before posting. Why did I bother?… Great question. For some reason I thought you might be open to critical feedback on your logline… I guess I never learn 😉
Something odd is going on here though, as I read a completely different reply from you earlier. Where’s it gone? It was very entertaining… great use of quotes… something about me with a shotgun, and my comment not being worthy of note..? You can take or leave my comments here, that’s all good… The beauty of an open forum such as this.
for what it’s worth (obviously not much though 😉 ) I do find your concept intriguing — — The setting and set-up particularly — it’s just that regardless of any of the iterations you have done through this thread I can’t get a handle on the story, I’m struggling to get a handle on what exactly happens, and like dpg said very early on (to which you agreed) — what you describe in the earlier edits of the logline is the set-up… there is too much focus on why the bounty hunter is there in the first place, when that really doesn’t seem to have much to do with the main problem he faces throughout the course of the movie. The latter variations are too vague, and I can’t care enough about the stakes character because he doesn’t seem to have any personal connection to the bounty hunter… he’s simply a random “innocent” (oops — I used quotes again 🙁 )
I would be interested in seeing this when completed, just to see what “manipulates time and reality” actually looks like.
Best of luck with it.
I read the entire thread before posting. Why did I bother?… Great question. For some reason I thought you might be open to critical feedback on your logline… I guess I never learn 😉
Something odd is going on here though, as I read a completely different reply from you earlier. Where’s it gone? It was very entertaining… great use of quotes… something about me with a shotgun, and my comment not being worthy of note..? You can take or leave my comments here, that’s all good… The beauty of an open forum such as this.
for what it’s worth (obviously not much though 😉 ) I do find your concept intriguing — — The setting and set-up particularly — it’s just that regardless of any of the iterations you have done through this thread I can’t get a handle on the story, I’m struggling to get a handle on what exactly happens, and like dpg said very early on (to which you agreed) — what you describe in the earlier edits of the logline is the set-up… there is too much focus on why the bounty hunter is there in the first place, when that really doesn’t seem to have much to do with the main problem he faces throughout the course of the movie. The latter variations are too vague, and I can’t care enough about the stakes character because he doesn’t seem to have any personal connection to the bounty hunter… he’s simply a random “innocent” (oops — I used quotes again 🙁 )
I would be interested in seeing this when completed, just to see what “manipulates time and reality” actually looks like.
Best of luck with it.
… and lastly — maybe a good question to ask before penning further edits: What is the hero’s main action throughout the film? ATM I get that he is hunted by a time and reality manipulating killer… in a bar — but what does that equate to in an action? Is he hiding? For me this is where I get confused. I think that if you focus on his main action, your logline/ story would become a lot clearer.
I get you don’t really appreciate my feedback — I’m sorry if it comes across as too harsh, or not note worthy — but I’m sincerely only wishing to help, by being as honest with folks here as I can. It’s what I expect whenever I get the gonads to post a logline here. You obviously have high standards when it comes to originality — which is awesome… I think that good be balanced with some stronger structure/ clarity. I only provide feedback when I am grabbed by a concept, even if I don’t have a good handle on a story.
… and lastly — maybe a good question to ask before penning further edits: What is the hero’s main action throughout the film? ATM I get that he is hunted by a time and reality manipulating killer… in a bar — but what does that equate to in an action? Is he hiding? For me this is where I get confused. I think that if you focus on his main action, your logline/ story would become a lot clearer.
I get you don’t really appreciate my feedback — I’m sorry if it comes across as too harsh, or not note worthy — but I’m sincerely only wishing to help, by being as honest with folks here as I can. It’s what I expect whenever I get the gonads to post a logline here. You obviously have high standards when it comes to originality — which is awesome… I think that good be balanced with some stronger structure/ clarity. I only provide feedback when I am grabbed by a concept, even if I don’t have a good handle on a story.
I believe someone censored my previous comment – not the American way. I’m glad you were able to read it so I don’t need to repeat myself. But from your response you seemed to get the jokes but not the arguments.
Its weird when a person just launches themselves from out of the blue into the latter stages of a thread in such a combative fashion and dismisses all previous contributions with sweeping inaccuracies. Hence my references to your love for the shotgun.
I believe someone censored my previous comment – not the American way. I’m glad you were able to read it so I don’t need to repeat myself. But from your response you seemed to get the jokes but not the arguments.
Its weird when a person just launches themselves from out of the blue into the latter stages of a thread in such a combative fashion and dismisses all previous contributions with sweeping inaccuracies. Hence my references to your love for the shotgun.