In the final moments before facing the firing squad, the charismatic leader of a murderous robbery gang makes one last request: to have her confession heard by the priest who was once her lover.
kbfilmworksSamurai
In the final moments before facing the firing squad, the charismatic leader of a murderous robbery gang makes one last request: to have her confession heard by the priest who was once her lover.
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Well, there’s a situation, a setup for the 1st Act. And then what? What’s his game plan? What becomes his objective goal upon the reveal?
Well, there’s a situation, a setup for the 1st Act. And then what? What’s his game plan? What becomes his objective goal upon the reveal?
You should focus on the lead character in the logline, the priest or the leader of the gang. (Can’t tell from the logline who’s the lead character)
You should focus on the lead character in the logline, the priest or the leader of the gang. (Can’t tell from the logline who’s the lead character)
Here is a revised draft addressing your comments.
Here is a revised draft addressing your comments.
As the previous comments have suggested this logline lacks a clear MC and goal. I would add that it is too long and has far to much detail of the setting and events in the story that don’t really need to be included in the logline.
Really depends on who is the MC that will determine the re structuring of this loglie.
Hope this helps.
As the previous comments have suggested this logline lacks a clear MC and goal. I would add that it is too long and has far to much detail of the setting and events in the story that don’t really need to be included in the logline.
Really depends on who is the MC that will determine the re structuring of this loglie.
Hope this helps.
>>struggle to make peace with their past….grapple with his own past
That suggests a story line that marches forward by looking backwards, with its gaze fixed on where its been rather than where it’s going.
The prisoners are facing imminent death. All their memories are about to be annihilated. What good will “making peace with their past” do, what dramatic purpose does it serve? Which, after all, seems to be dealing with subjective issues.
A logline is about objective goals. And objective goals should face forward in time, not backwards. Whatever the memories, whatever the issues in the past, the plot should be about the main character dealing with the situation that exists here and now.
fwiw.
>>struggle to make peace with their past….grapple with his own past
That suggests a story line that marches forward by looking backwards, with its gaze fixed on where its been rather than where it’s going.
The prisoners are facing imminent death. All their memories are about to be annihilated. What good will “making peace with their past” do, what dramatic purpose does it serve? Which, after all, seems to be dealing with subjective issues.
A logline is about objective goals. And objective goals should face forward in time, not backwards. Whatever the memories, whatever the issues in the past, the plot should be about the main character dealing with the situation that exists here and now.
fwiw.
Hi dpg,
The screenplay shares the same structure as ‘Amadeus’ – it’s a story that’s told in flashback because the narrator is confessing past sins – again – to a priest. And yes, they are dealing with the ‘here and now’ – the knowledge that death is imminent and the need to reflect on the past. It’s human.
Here is the imdb logline for Amadeus: The incredible story of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, told by his peer and secret rival, Antonio Saleri – now confined to an insane asylum.
Hi dpg,
The screenplay shares the same structure as ‘Amadeus’ – it’s a story that’s told in flashback because the narrator is confessing past sins – again – to a priest. And yes, they are dealing with the ‘here and now’ – the knowledge that death is imminent and the need to reflect on the past. It’s human.
Here is the imdb logline for Amadeus: The incredible story of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, told by his peer and secret rival, Antonio Saleri – now confined to an insane asylum.
Okay.
Salieri’s confession is a framing device to tell the story of Mozart who is clearly the protagonist. And Salieri is clearly the antagonist (and pov narrator). Who are assigned those roles in your story?
In “Amadeus”, the priest is a mere mediocrity in his profession (as Salieri is in his). He’s a character used to set up the dramatic exploration of some heavy weight artistic and theological questions, about the nature of genius, the justice and equity of deity.
In the 7th minute of the film, Salieri asks:
SALIERI: Do you know who I am?
PRIEST: It makes no difference. All men are equal in God’s eyes.
SALIERI: Are they?
That is the dramatic question the rest of the film explores.
(Also the movie was an adaptation of a wildly successful stage play. IOW: the premise was pre-sold, a proven winner. And then there’s the sin qua non icing on the cake: Wolfie Mozart’s divine music. Does your story have any of those elements to pre-sell it?)
It seems to me that for the purpose of the logline, your concept has got to do more than indicate that it mimics the structure of “Amadeus”. It think it needs a tighter, a more specific focus. “Reflecting on the past” seems too general. That may be the meat of the story, but it seems to me that the SIZZLE is how 2 lives passionately intersected and then wildly diverged.
And loglines are about selling sizzle, not meat.
fwiw.
Okay.
Salieri’s confession is a framing device to tell the story of Mozart who is clearly the protagonist. And Salieri is clearly the antagonist (and pov narrator). Who are assigned those roles in your story?
In “Amadeus”, the priest is a mere mediocrity in his profession (as Salieri is in his). He’s a character used to set up the dramatic exploration of some heavy weight artistic and theological questions, about the nature of genius, the justice and equity of deity.
In the 7th minute of the film, Salieri asks:
SALIERI: Do you know who I am?
PRIEST: It makes no difference. All men are equal in God’s eyes.
SALIERI: Are they?
That is the dramatic question the rest of the film explores.
(Also the movie was an adaptation of a wildly successful stage play. IOW: the premise was pre-sold, a proven winner. And then there’s the sin qua non icing on the cake: Wolfie Mozart’s divine music. Does your story have any of those elements to pre-sell it?)
It seems to me that for the purpose of the logline, your concept has got to do more than indicate that it mimics the structure of “Amadeus”. It think it needs a tighter, a more specific focus. “Reflecting on the past” seems too general. That may be the meat of the story, but it seems to me that the SIZZLE is how 2 lives passionately intersected and then wildly diverged.
And loglines are about selling sizzle, not meat.
fwiw.
Sorry to disagree with you, dpg. But I don’t subscribe to your paradigm of storytelling or your rigid definition of what a logline is or how it should function in this instance. Maybe this formulaic approach speaks more about the effect on some writers of hyper-inflated budgets and corporate executives clinging to their paycheques rather than engaging audiences.
By the way, it is not my logline that is similar to ‘Amadeus’ but my screenplay so I don’t see the relevance of your comments about the stageplay. Also, the relevance of quoting screenplay dialogue in regard to loglines escapes me.
Sorry to disagree with you, dpg. But I don’t subscribe to your paradigm of storytelling or your rigid definition of what a logline is or how it should function in this instance. Maybe this formulaic approach speaks more about the effect on some writers of hyper-inflated budgets and corporate executives clinging to their paycheques rather than engaging audiences.
By the way, it is not my logline that is similar to ‘Amadeus’ but my screenplay so I don’t see the relevance of your comments about the stageplay. Also, the relevance of quoting screenplay dialogue in regard to loglines escapes me.
Frankly, I think the conventions of loglines — such as the requirement to distill the concept down to (ideally) 30 words or so, to focus on the objective goal, disregard subjective issues — are rather arbitrary and downright frustrating. But those conventions reflect the nature of the business. The people who can green light a project are extremely busy, have short attention spans. We have but a few precious seconds to hit them with our concepts and hook their interest. I can rail against the facts of the business all I want, but my opinion doesn’t count.
If you think you can defy the [expletive deleted] conventions and sell your script, more power to you.
Frankly, I think the conventions of loglines — such as the requirement to distill the concept down to (ideally) 30 words or so, to focus on the objective goal, disregard subjective issues — are rather arbitrary and downright frustrating. But those conventions reflect the nature of the business. The people who can green light a project are extremely busy, have short attention spans. We have but a few precious seconds to hit them with our concepts and hook their interest. I can rail against the facts of the business all I want, but my opinion doesn’t count.
If you think you can defy the [expletive deleted] conventions and sell your script, more power to you.
dpg, the thing is – the big budget Hollywood movie is a fantasy for most writers. So why limit ourselves by following their rules? So we can sell ten screenplays that never get made? Are we exploring the human condition or are we writers of video games?
I know, I’m preaching to the choir.
In Europe and the rest of the world we know it’s futile to try and compete with Hollywood or try and do what Hollywood does best. And, there have always been alternatives to mainstream cinema. The good news is that social media and VOD along with specialist or niche audiences now easily reached online means that we as writers have more freedom to engage and entertain.
And yes, even in this ‘brave new world’ loglines or plot summaries are still a necessity. I’m just personally against non-Hollywood writers who are not targeting that marketplace having their loglines criticized for failing to measure up to Hollywood standards.
dpg, the thing is – the big budget Hollywood movie is a fantasy for most writers. So why limit ourselves by following their rules? So we can sell ten screenplays that never get made? Are we exploring the human condition or are we writers of video games?
I know, I’m preaching to the choir.
In Europe and the rest of the world we know it’s futile to try and compete with Hollywood or try and do what Hollywood does best. And, there have always been alternatives to mainstream cinema. The good news is that social media and VOD along with specialist or niche audiences now easily reached online means that we as writers have more freedom to engage and entertain.
And yes, even in this ‘brave new world’ loglines or plot summaries are still a necessity. I’m just personally against non-Hollywood writers who are not targeting that marketplace having their loglines criticized for failing to measure up to Hollywood standards.
I think the conventional Hollyweird business model is in flux, if not in crisis, particularly the traditional distribution channel through theater chains. [Every time I go to a movie theater, I feel like I’m in a dinosaur museum.]
But whatever changes occur in the making and distribution of movies, whatever changes there are in the rules of game, one factor will never change: time. We all will continue to have exactly the same amount of time, 86,400 seconds a day, no more no less.
Amidst all the hype about new venues for distribution let us not forget the flip side: more pipelines means more product, yes — and more competition for those immutable 86,400 seconds. Ergo, in my not-so humble opinion, it is not less imperative, but more imperative than ever for writers to promote their scripts in ways that will maximize their already slim to nil chances of getting attention.
I don’t have an issue with the flashback technique for telling your story. All I meant to say is that, for me, that technique is not an attention grabber, not a strong hook for promoting your script. I think your hook needs better bait. What would hook my attention is the notion of two people whose lives intersected (as lovers) — and then wildly diverged until they meet again when one of them faces a death squad. (An even stronger hook for my pathological sense of drama would be if they meet again as bitter, irreconcilable enemies.)
Others’ mileage may vary.
I think the conventional Hollyweird business model is in flux, if not in crisis, particularly the traditional distribution channel through theater chains. [Every time I go to a movie theater, I feel like I’m in a dinosaur museum.]
But whatever changes occur in the making and distribution of movies, whatever changes there are in the rules of game, one factor will never change: time. We all will continue to have exactly the same amount of time, 86,400 seconds a day, no more no less.
Amidst all the hype about new venues for distribution let us not forget the flip side: more pipelines means more product, yes — and more competition for those immutable 86,400 seconds. Ergo, in my not-so humble opinion, it is not less imperative, but more imperative than ever for writers to promote their scripts in ways that will maximize their already slim to nil chances of getting attention.
I don’t have an issue with the flashback technique for telling your story. All I meant to say is that, for me, that technique is not an attention grabber, not a strong hook for promoting your script. I think your hook needs better bait. What would hook my attention is the notion of two people whose lives intersected (as lovers) — and then wildly diverged until they meet again when one of them faces a death squad. (An even stronger hook for my pathological sense of drama would be if they meet again as bitter, irreconcilable enemies.)
Others’ mileage may vary.
Opinions about the main stream entertainment industry are widely varied especially when voiced from different parts of the world. Therefore personal opinions about the behavior of corporations is somewhat unrelated to the current subject.
Formulaic or not ultimately a logline will be used to either sell a script or structure a story. It must transmit the crucial components of the story in an easy to understand and therefor a known manner which means that by definition it has to follow a formula in order to achieve either goal.
Many writers like to criticize the main stream Hollywood industry for its corporate approach. It is important to remember that film making conventions used in indi and studio productions alike were established in Hollywood. These have worked for almost 80 years and deliver more stories world wide than most other industries to date and for a reason. The changing distribution models will change this paradigm to a degree and present opportunities for more to partake in the process but the industry conventions will remain mostly intact.
Story conventions have evolved over time but still remain true to their ancient Greek origin regardless the changing distribution models and industry conventions.
One fact remains above all; story is king and plot his queen. No matter your delivery platform or development process your logline must be structured accordingly.
All previous comments still apply.
Opinions about the main stream entertainment industry are widely varied especially when voiced from different parts of the world. Therefore personal opinions about the behavior of corporations is somewhat unrelated to the current subject.
Formulaic or not ultimately a logline will be used to either sell a script or structure a story. It must transmit the crucial components of the story in an easy to understand and therefor a known manner which means that by definition it has to follow a formula in order to achieve either goal.
Many writers like to criticize the main stream Hollywood industry for its corporate approach. It is important to remember that film making conventions used in indi and studio productions alike were established in Hollywood. These have worked for almost 80 years and deliver more stories world wide than most other industries to date and for a reason. The changing distribution models will change this paradigm to a degree and present opportunities for more to partake in the process but the industry conventions will remain mostly intact.
Story conventions have evolved over time but still remain true to their ancient Greek origin regardless the changing distribution models and industry conventions.
One fact remains above all; story is king and plot his queen. No matter your delivery platform or development process your logline must be structured accordingly.
All previous comments still apply.
Nir Shelter, not all cinema is about stories and not all narratives are story-driven and plot is definitely not king. You have a mainstream outlook on movies which is fine but don’t impose it on others like some kind of religious zealot. There’s already enough misguided religion in the world. You need to broaden your horizons. Check out some European art films or some good old Cassavettes.
Nir Shelter, not all cinema is about stories and not all narratives are story-driven and plot is definitely not king. You have a mainstream outlook on movies which is fine but don’t impose it on others like some kind of religious zealot. There’s already enough misguided religion in the world. You need to broaden your horizons. Check out some European art films or some good old Cassavettes.
Hi kbfilmworks,
My two cents…
Indie or mega budget extravaganza, it don’t matter — to be successful, both depend on having a strong story (and when I say successful, I mean financially or artistically…) concept captures interest, but story, with an identifiable/ or intriguing main character, make you want to see/ read a film. When a loglines’ story is clear, with an identifiable, fallible, or intriguing main character, it also sends a message that the film is in the hands of a professional… and if you aren’t funding the projects you’re writing yourself, then certainly you’d be using the logline to spruik the movie… I mean, Indie feature budgets can still shoot pretty high, right? At some point you need to get folks on board, even if you’re planning on shooting on bubkas. If you’re not, and the logline is just for your own tool to guide you through writing the screenplay, then whatev’s… As long as you know what the story is about — but — if it’s a case of you wanting to post your logline here to get feedback to help clarify it, make it stronger, more appealing for ANYBODY to get involved in it to see it made, then I’d echo others above in saying that the story itself is unclear… Nothing wrong with having dual protags, but I’m just lost on what this film is actually about… I get hints, but there’s precious space taken up on things that aren’t needed i.e. ‘STUNNINGLY charismatic…’ better just ‘charismatic’, imo. Also, “ends up as” feels like he had no say in the matter, or like he just fell into it… which i guess just doesn’t sit right given the profession. I don’t know, maybe that’s just me.
If your intention is for dual protagonists, then we should know what they BOTH want… All I know of her is the she is full of Implacable hatred, and that he wants forgiveness from her for something that occurred in the past..? This last part is really confusing — he wants forgiveness from her NOW in regards to some undisclosed event, and he couldn’t forgive her in the PAST for some other undisclosed event..?? I get you’re trying to tease, but I think it’s always better to just to state very specifically what is wanted by the main character (or characters), as this is what brings clarity to both loglines and stories, and of course films.
Best of luck.
Hi kbfilmworks,
My two cents…
Indie or mega budget extravaganza, it don’t matter — to be successful, both depend on having a strong story (and when I say successful, I mean financially or artistically…) concept captures interest, but story, with an identifiable/ or intriguing main character, make you want to see/ read a film. When a loglines’ story is clear, with an identifiable, fallible, or intriguing main character, it also sends a message that the film is in the hands of a professional… and if you aren’t funding the projects you’re writing yourself, then certainly you’d be using the logline to spruik the movie… I mean, Indie feature budgets can still shoot pretty high, right? At some point you need to get folks on board, even if you’re planning on shooting on bubkas. If you’re not, and the logline is just for your own tool to guide you through writing the screenplay, then whatev’s… As long as you know what the story is about — but — if it’s a case of you wanting to post your logline here to get feedback to help clarify it, make it stronger, more appealing for ANYBODY to get involved in it to see it made, then I’d echo others above in saying that the story itself is unclear… Nothing wrong with having dual protags, but I’m just lost on what this film is actually about… I get hints, but there’s precious space taken up on things that aren’t needed i.e. ‘STUNNINGLY charismatic…’ better just ‘charismatic’, imo. Also, “ends up as” feels like he had no say in the matter, or like he just fell into it… which i guess just doesn’t sit right given the profession. I don’t know, maybe that’s just me.
If your intention is for dual protagonists, then we should know what they BOTH want… All I know of her is the she is full of Implacable hatred, and that he wants forgiveness from her for something that occurred in the past..? This last part is really confusing — he wants forgiveness from her NOW in regards to some undisclosed event, and he couldn’t forgive her in the PAST for some other undisclosed event..?? I get you’re trying to tease, but I think it’s always better to just to state very specifically what is wanted by the main character (or characters), as this is what brings clarity to both loglines and stories, and of course films.
Best of luck.
What Nir Shelter and Tony Edward said.
A logline is a sales tool. Its purpose is to attract money and talent to get a script made into a movie.
And movie making has always been and will always be an unholy, tumultuous marriage of an irreconcilable odd couple: art and commerce.
What Nir Shelter and Tony Edward said.
A logline is a sales tool. Its purpose is to attract money and talent to get a script made into a movie.
And movie making has always been and will always be an unholy, tumultuous marriage of an irreconcilable odd couple: art and commerce.
It seems like I’m the only one seriously interested in improving the logline. It’s hard work sifting your wordy comments for seeds of relevance among the chaff of various egos flaunting a lot of craft and skills and no script sales.
It seems like I’m the only one seriously interested in improving the logline. It’s hard work sifting your wordy comments for seeds of relevance among the chaff of various egos flaunting a lot of craft and skills and no script sales.
What improvements would you suggest?
What improvements would you suggest?
The logline has been updated at least 5 times over the last 24 hours and you failed to notice?
The logline has been updated at least 5 times over the last 24 hours and you failed to notice?
If you want folks to notice the changes to your logline, maybe make the edits here inside the thread.
You sound quite resentful and bitter about the feedback that you’ve received… I’m not sure what you are expecting, but I would’ve assumed that you were looking to improve it — how can you do that when any relevant suggestion that has been made (1. It’s too long/ 2. Story is unclear — both equal 3. I don’t care about the plight of you main characters, and in turn your film…) you are not prepared to see because you think the suggestions are bogged down in a “mainstream paradigm” of what story/ loglines should be. Gees. If you want to make incoherent art films, all the power to you… but to be honest, the logline sounds a long way from being an art film… in fact, in sounds quite melodramatic… like a romance gone wrong — but really, I have no idea of what it’s about — all I know is that a Priest reunites with his bitter ex girlfriend when giving her the last rites from her prison cell…?
I think the other big problem — which despite your opinion that the feedback you have received is irrelevant, is that the structure is too heavily focussed on events in the past — like dpg said, a logline becomes interesting, engaging whathavyou, when it is focussed on events happening in the present…
Anyway — that’s all you’ll get from me.
If you want folks to notice the changes to your logline, maybe make the edits here inside the thread.
You sound quite resentful and bitter about the feedback that you’ve received… I’m not sure what you are expecting, but I would’ve assumed that you were looking to improve it — how can you do that when any relevant suggestion that has been made (1. It’s too long/ 2. Story is unclear — both equal 3. I don’t care about the plight of you main characters, and in turn your film…) you are not prepared to see because you think the suggestions are bogged down in a “mainstream paradigm” of what story/ loglines should be. Gees. If you want to make incoherent art films, all the power to you… but to be honest, the logline sounds a long way from being an art film… in fact, in sounds quite melodramatic… like a romance gone wrong — but really, I have no idea of what it’s about — all I know is that a Priest reunites with his bitter ex girlfriend when giving her the last rites from her prison cell…?
I think the other big problem — which despite your opinion that the feedback you have received is irrelevant, is that the structure is too heavily focussed on events in the past — like dpg said, a logline becomes interesting, engaging whathavyou, when it is focussed on events happening in the present…
Anyway — that’s all you’ll get from me.
kbfilmworks:
Obviously, we don’t see eye to eye. That happens. Even so, I don’t doubt your intelligence, your integrity, your passion and commitment to producing quality art.
And I commend you for your fortitude: you’ve been hanging around this precinct long enough to know that posting a logline is akin to standing your story in front of a firing squad.
I think you have an interesting germ of a concept, but the logline… well, enough said.
I wish you well with this story and every success with your writing.
kbfilmworks:
Obviously, we don’t see eye to eye. That happens. Even so, I don’t doubt your intelligence, your integrity, your passion and commitment to producing quality art.
And I commend you for your fortitude: you’ve been hanging around this precinct long enough to know that posting a logline is akin to standing your story in front of a firing squad.
I think you have an interesting germ of a concept, but the logline… well, enough said.
I wish you well with this story and every success with your writing.
“When a devout priest with a sordid past, is asked to perform last rights on a violent bur charismatic female gang leader, he must come to terms with the fact she’s his high school sweetheart.”
Just curious what is the priest goal? Saving her soul?
“When a devout priest with a colored past discovers the woman on death row he’s to perform last rights on is his former high school sweetheart, He vows to save her soul but must contend with her hardened atheistic beliefs.”
Hope that helped.
“When a devout priest with a sordid past, is asked to perform last rights on a violent bur charismatic female gang leader, he must come to terms with the fact she’s his high school sweetheart.”
Just curious what is the priest goal? Saving her soul?
“When a devout priest with a colored past discovers the woman on death row he’s to perform last rights on is his former high school sweetheart, He vows to save her soul but must contend with her hardened atheistic beliefs.”
Hope that helped.
Hi Kbfilmworks.
I assure you no ego flaunting nor religious zealot of any kind are my intentions my goal is to help you with your concept and logline. There for my lengthy and detailed reply to your posts.
Since you raised and criticized it. My view of story is a simple derivative of the common denominators observed amongst successfully told stories that have been recognized as such over the last 3000 years. I researched story and narrative in depth from the Iliad to Beowulf to Gogol’s work and found recurring structural elements that we can use in our work today and asked if they did it why can’t we?
Regarding Cassavettes you should look into his work and method further. His method involved giving actors clear and decisive goals and motivations (which would often contradict other character’s goals and motivations) then letting them improvise their reactions to each other in rehearsal, he would then write the script from that. He knew the importance of clear and tangible character goals what seams to be lacking from your logline.
His films ultimately were made with unconventional coverage that gave them an art house feel, they found a limited audience and are hailed by film making academia not the viewing public.
If your intentions are to tell a story to a specific segment of the audience that appreciate a specific type of story that differs to main stream audience tastes, then by all means do so. I think that for the most part writers aspire to tell a story to a wider segment of the viewing audience than a narrower one. Hens my comments regarding the conversions of story.
This is an interesting thread as we are discussing the philosophy of story telling as well as providing feedback for a specific concept. However it has digressed from a majority of feedback so back to your concept.
I strongly suggest you re visit the comments given to you previously as they still apply to the current draft of the logline. It is a good idea to re post a logline’s new draft down the same thread as appose to change the original logline. This way we can all track the changes that are made on each new draft.
I think the reason you feel like people stopped providing helpful feedback at some point is because the re draft of the logline didn’t incorporate the suggestions made. As such any further suggestions would be a repeat of previous ones and seam to lack in genuine contribution to the concept.
Previous comments still apply and I would add that there is an unnecessary addition of back story about them taking two separate paths that is taking up precious logline real-estate whilst adding little to the clarity of the concept.
My suggestion:
Pick a MC that needs to make a choice. In this instance she has little choice in the matter as she is already in custody the priest however could need to make a choice between saving her sole with prayer or saving her body by breaking her out before the death squad.
As such his goal is obvious help the girl, obstacle would be the law/his conscious/ his love for her. Insighting incident her being sentenced to death.
Then re draft the logline to incorporate these elements in a cause and effect chain of events.
Good luck with your work and I hope you find your audience.
Hi Kbfilmworks.
I assure you no ego flaunting nor religious zealot of any kind are my intentions my goal is to help you with your concept and logline. There for my lengthy and detailed reply to your posts.
Since you raised and criticized it. My view of story is a simple derivative of the common denominators observed amongst successfully told stories that have been recognized as such over the last 3000 years. I researched story and narrative in depth from the Iliad to Beowulf to Gogol’s work and found recurring structural elements that we can use in our work today and asked if they did it why can’t we?
Regarding Cassavettes you should look into his work and method further. His method involved giving actors clear and decisive goals and motivations (which would often contradict other character’s goals and motivations) then letting them improvise their reactions to each other in rehearsal, he would then write the script from that. He knew the importance of clear and tangible character goals what seams to be lacking from your logline.
His films ultimately were made with unconventional coverage that gave them an art house feel, they found a limited audience and are hailed by film making academia not the viewing public.
If your intentions are to tell a story to a specific segment of the audience that appreciate a specific type of story that differs to main stream audience tastes, then by all means do so. I think that for the most part writers aspire to tell a story to a wider segment of the viewing audience than a narrower one. Hens my comments regarding the conversions of story.
This is an interesting thread as we are discussing the philosophy of story telling as well as providing feedback for a specific concept. However it has digressed from a majority of feedback so back to your concept.
I strongly suggest you re visit the comments given to you previously as they still apply to the current draft of the logline. It is a good idea to re post a logline’s new draft down the same thread as appose to change the original logline. This way we can all track the changes that are made on each new draft.
I think the reason you feel like people stopped providing helpful feedback at some point is because the re draft of the logline didn’t incorporate the suggestions made. As such any further suggestions would be a repeat of previous ones and seam to lack in genuine contribution to the concept.
Previous comments still apply and I would add that there is an unnecessary addition of back story about them taking two separate paths that is taking up precious logline real-estate whilst adding little to the clarity of the concept.
My suggestion:
Pick a MC that needs to make a choice. In this instance she has little choice in the matter as she is already in custody the priest however could need to make a choice between saving her sole with prayer or saving her body by breaking her out before the death squad.
As such his goal is obvious help the girl, obstacle would be the law/his conscious/ his love for her. Insighting incident her being sentenced to death.
Then re draft the logline to incorporate these elements in a cause and effect chain of events.
Good luck with your work and I hope you find your audience.
Thanks very much, RichieV. You’ve definitely helped in a major way.
Yes. The priest’s goal is to save her soul. She hates him because of how he treated her when they were kids. So he needs her to forgive him first.
With this in mind:
“A notorious armed robbery gang is about to be executed by firing squad. When the devout priest offering last rites and confession discovers that the gang?s charismatic leader is his former high school sweetheart he fights to save her soul even though she hates him.”
My problem is: this logline makes the screenplay seem like a melodrama with attitude.
In truth, this logline only reflects a small section of the screenplay which is an epic crime drama – kind of in the style of an old European novel with multiple protagonists – that’s structured around the rituals/protocols of a military firing squad. That’s not to say it doesn’t have plot points but it’s a really simple story – a slice of life narrative that’s rich in character and incident and so a logline that’s truer to the screenplay would go something like this:
“Members of a notorious armed robbery gang about to face the firing squad look back and tell of their lives struggling with poverty and oppression and the charismatic woman who led them into a thug life of cheap thrills and easy money and how each of them copes with the knowledge that death is imminent.”
Now, I’ve heard a lot of stuff from Hollywood writers on this site about plot is king and goal-driven protagonists, etc. and I’m not interested in any of that. If I wanted to write that stuff then I would. I mean, how many writers in Hollywood have an individual voice, anyway? Most of Hollywood’s great writers are also directors. So I don’t need a logline to ‘pitch producers or executives’ I need it to simply and truthfully describe the project in a few short crisp sentences.
Thanks very much, RichieV. You’ve definitely helped in a major way.
Yes. The priest’s goal is to save her soul. She hates him because of how he treated her when they were kids. So he needs her to forgive him first.
With this in mind:
“A notorious armed robbery gang is about to be executed by firing squad. When the devout priest offering last rites and confession discovers that the gang?s charismatic leader is his former high school sweetheart he fights to save her soul even though she hates him.”
My problem is: this logline makes the screenplay seem like a melodrama with attitude.
In truth, this logline only reflects a small section of the screenplay which is an epic crime drama – kind of in the style of an old European novel with multiple protagonists – that’s structured around the rituals/protocols of a military firing squad. That’s not to say it doesn’t have plot points but it’s a really simple story – a slice of life narrative that’s rich in character and incident and so a logline that’s truer to the screenplay would go something like this:
“Members of a notorious armed robbery gang about to face the firing squad look back and tell of their lives struggling with poverty and oppression and the charismatic woman who led them into a thug life of cheap thrills and easy money and how each of them copes with the knowledge that death is imminent.”
Now, I’ve heard a lot of stuff from Hollywood writers on this site about plot is king and goal-driven protagonists, etc. and I’m not interested in any of that. If I wanted to write that stuff then I would. I mean, how many writers in Hollywood have an individual voice, anyway? Most of Hollywood’s great writers are also directors. So I don’t need a logline to ‘pitch producers or executives’ I need it to simply and truthfully describe the project in a few short crisp sentences.
What does “cope with the knowledge…” mean? What’s the action line, the visual on that? Isn’t it rather the case that the knowledge of their imminent death forces them to reflect upon and confront the choices they made (or didn’t make) that has brought them to the present state of affairs? Are they not passing final judgement on how they lived their lives just before the firing squad passes its final judgement?
“Depend upon it, Sir, when a man knows he is to be hanged in a fortnight, it concentrates his mind wonderfully” — Samuel Johnson. But concentrates on what?
And if the priest is trying to save her soul before she dies, that’s sounds pretty goal-driven to me. Desperately, urgently goal-driven (since there is, no doubt, a ticking clock: death at dawn, high noon or whenever).
What does “cope with the knowledge…” mean? What’s the action line, the visual on that? Isn’t it rather the case that the knowledge of their imminent death forces them to reflect upon and confront the choices they made (or didn’t make) that has brought them to the present state of affairs? Are they not passing final judgement on how they lived their lives just before the firing squad passes its final judgement?
“Depend upon it, Sir, when a man knows he is to be hanged in a fortnight, it concentrates his mind wonderfully” — Samuel Johnson. But concentrates on what?
And if the priest is trying to save her soul before she dies, that’s sounds pretty goal-driven to me. Desperately, urgently goal-driven (since there is, no doubt, a ticking clock: death at dawn, high noon or whenever).
Here is your new attempt: As you wrote it.
A notorious armed robbery gang is about to be executed by firing squad. When the devout priest offering last rites and confession discovers that the gang?s charismatic leader is his former high school sweetheart he fights to save her soul even though she hates him.?
However I think you buried the lead: Here is the same logline without the first sentence.
“When a devout priest offering last rites and confession discovers the gang?s charismatic leader is his high school sweetheart, he fights to save her soul even though she hates him.?
Hope that helped
Here is your new attempt: As you wrote it.
A notorious armed robbery gang is about to be executed by firing squad. When the devout priest offering last rites and confession discovers that the gang?s charismatic leader is his former high school sweetheart he fights to save her soul even though she hates him.?
However I think you buried the lead: Here is the same logline without the first sentence.
“When a devout priest offering last rites and confession discovers the gang?s charismatic leader is his high school sweetheart, he fights to save her soul even though she hates him.?
Hope that helped
Yes, dpg, now you’ve set the fire burning: it is the knowledge of imminent death that forces them to reflect. And the Samuel Johnson quote is the big fat juicy steak. And yes, there are goals and plot points but they are incidental to a sweeping panoramic narrative that is held together by the suspenseful build-up to the executions, hence the flashback structure.
Coming back to SJ: knowledge of the end concentrates the mind on meaning, theme or the relevance of ones life. This is their goal. The theme or relevance of a narrative is only revealed at the end. Isn’t this why endings of screenplays are of paramount importance?
“In their final moments before facing the firing squad, members of a notorious armed robbery gang look back and tell of life under poverty and oppression and the charismatic woman who led them to a life of cheap thrills, murder and easy money.”
Yes, dpg, now you’ve set the fire burning: it is the knowledge of imminent death that forces them to reflect. And the Samuel Johnson quote is the big fat juicy steak. And yes, there are goals and plot points but they are incidental to a sweeping panoramic narrative that is held together by the suspenseful build-up to the executions, hence the flashback structure.
Coming back to SJ: knowledge of the end concentrates the mind on meaning, theme or the relevance of ones life. This is their goal. The theme or relevance of a narrative is only revealed at the end. Isn’t this why endings of screenplays are of paramount importance?
“In their final moments before facing the firing squad, members of a notorious armed robbery gang look back and tell of life under poverty and oppression and the charismatic woman who led them to a life of cheap thrills, murder and easy money.”
A story can have multiple layers and threads, of course. But there is usually one thematic focal point, one throughline, one framing device that holds the whole story together.
In the version of the logline at the top of this thread, the unifying thematic focal point or framing device seems to be two lives that converged and then diverged and are now converging for a denouement. Which raise the dramatic question of how it happened and, more importantly, why did their lives play out like that?
But in your latest interaction your thematic focal point or framing device seems to be something else, about how (and why?) some outlaws came under the spell of a charismatic woman and followed her to their doom.
fwiw.
A story can have multiple layers and threads, of course. But there is usually one thematic focal point, one throughline, one framing device that holds the whole story together.
In the version of the logline at the top of this thread, the unifying thematic focal point or framing device seems to be two lives that converged and then diverged and are now converging for a denouement. Which raise the dramatic question of how it happened and, more importantly, why did their lives play out like that?
But in your latest interaction your thematic focal point or framing device seems to be something else, about how (and why?) some outlaws came under the spell of a charismatic woman and followed her to their doom.
fwiw.
Yeah, I can’t disagree with what you’re saying, dpg. The framing device is the suspenseful preparations of the firing squad. The story of the woman and the priest is part of the fabric of the larger theme of social alienation. It would be disingenuous on my part to present a logline that does not describe the screenplay. Not to mention issues of defining its genre. The story of the woman and the priest is an edgy melodrama while the larger story is an action-adventure movie.
Thing is I’m not using the logline to sell the script – just to describe it to people who are familiar with the project. If I were trying to sell a script like this I might go for a half-page synopsis and include a few exciting details.
Yeah, I can’t disagree with what you’re saying, dpg. The framing device is the suspenseful preparations of the firing squad. The story of the woman and the priest is part of the fabric of the larger theme of social alienation. It would be disingenuous on my part to present a logline that does not describe the screenplay. Not to mention issues of defining its genre. The story of the woman and the priest is an edgy melodrama while the larger story is an action-adventure movie.
Thing is I’m not using the logline to sell the script – just to describe it to people who are familiar with the project. If I were trying to sell a script like this I might go for a half-page synopsis and include a few exciting details.
The reason I’m staying on your case (other than being an SOB) — what hooks my interest in the story — is your idea of a charismatic female leader. My interest arises from personal experience, having been pulled in by the force field of some charismatic personalities in my callow, foolish youth. It was an expensive and painful education in the psychological dynamics of fanatical (aka: true believer) consciousness, the ability to maintain an unwavering belief in delusionary dogma even when being bitch-slapped by reality. [imho, most movies featuring True Believer characters just don’t get it, don’t grok what’s really going on in fanatical minds.)
One dramatic question your story raises in my mind pertains to the contrasting life courses of the priest and her followers: why was the priest ultimately immune to her charisma while the other guys succumbed? Or how/why did he escape her psychological force field — and they didn’t?
fwiw.
The reason I’m staying on your case (other than being an SOB) — what hooks my interest in the story — is your idea of a charismatic female leader. My interest arises from personal experience, having been pulled in by the force field of some charismatic personalities in my callow, foolish youth. It was an expensive and painful education in the psychological dynamics of fanatical (aka: true believer) consciousness, the ability to maintain an unwavering belief in delusionary dogma even when being bitch-slapped by reality. [imho, most movies featuring True Believer characters just don’t get it, don’t grok what’s really going on in fanatical minds.)
One dramatic question your story raises in my mind pertains to the contrasting life courses of the priest and her followers: why was the priest ultimately immune to her charisma while the other guys succumbed? Or how/why did he escape her psychological force field — and they didn’t?
fwiw.
“The theme or relevance of a narrative is only revealed at the end.” Is a dangerous approach, think of it this way; why would an audience member stay to watch until the end?
As appose to your thinking from the point of view that you know how it ends and what the relevance is think of it as someone that doesn’t know the end or the relevance. For them to want to keep on watching they would need to understand the relevance throughout the story.
Your device to tell the story is a retrospect via flash backs and as you said “…the larger story is an action-adventure movie.”
This means that your audience will empathize with the MC and emotionally invest in the story’s action during the adventure portion. I think this means that the suspense from the ticking time bomb of the death sentence will be diffused and have little if any effect on the audience.
To me as for others on this thread the strong female gang leader sounds interesting where as the elements from the framing story sound less interesting. As the action-adventure will constitute the majority of your film perhaps best to focus on that. Just as “Saving Private Ryan”, “Forrest Gump”, “Titanic” and even the book “In Cold Blood” are often described via the main action of the central story not the framing device of a retrospect telling of it.
We all know what you think about Hollywood films but for purpose of illustrating this point these films are good examples regardless where they were made.
If your trying to explain to someone working on your film in either a logline or synopsis what it is about this would likely be a more accurate approach.
“The theme or relevance of a narrative is only revealed at the end.” Is a dangerous approach, think of it this way; why would an audience member stay to watch until the end?
As appose to your thinking from the point of view that you know how it ends and what the relevance is think of it as someone that doesn’t know the end or the relevance. For them to want to keep on watching they would need to understand the relevance throughout the story.
Your device to tell the story is a retrospect via flash backs and as you said “…the larger story is an action-adventure movie.”
This means that your audience will empathize with the MC and emotionally invest in the story’s action during the adventure portion. I think this means that the suspense from the ticking time bomb of the death sentence will be diffused and have little if any effect on the audience.
To me as for others on this thread the strong female gang leader sounds interesting where as the elements from the framing story sound less interesting. As the action-adventure will constitute the majority of your film perhaps best to focus on that. Just as “Saving Private Ryan”, “Forrest Gump”, “Titanic” and even the book “In Cold Blood” are often described via the main action of the central story not the framing device of a retrospect telling of it.
We all know what you think about Hollywood films but for purpose of illustrating this point these films are good examples regardless where they were made.
If your trying to explain to someone working on your film in either a logline or synopsis what it is about this would likely be a more accurate approach.
Kbfilmworks is marching to the beat of his own rhythm section on this story. I’m not yet sure where he’s marching to, but I’m willing to tag along — until he marches off the edge of the cliff. 🙂
Kbfilmworks is marching to the beat of his own rhythm section on this story. I’m not yet sure where he’s marching to, but I’m willing to tag along — until he marches off the edge of the cliff. 🙂
Responding to dpg’s point about the woman’s influence. Yes, it’s very similar to the personal experience you mentioned.
The gang members were vulnerable and needy due to poverty and oppression and she offered the only ray of hope so it’s not like they were spoiled for choice. Talking about her in hindsight, some say she was an angel and some say she was the devil in disguise.
I suspect most people have hidden sides to their character waiting to be discovered. So, one day, she’s a trainee accountant walking into a store during a hold-up and twenty minutes later she’s found her life’s vocation and she’s a wanted felon, having teamed up with the guy robbing the store.
So who knows when a person will stumble across their biggest turn-on? I’m talking to you, dpg.
Talking about screenwriting and film-making: it’s important to know the rules. Just like it’s important for all fine artists to study drawing. But when you begin your artistic life you throw the rule book away because it’s the only way to do anything of real value. Now, everything I’ve been saying in this thread is from the perspective of a director who also writes so I have absolutely no problem sticking to my guns all day long.
Responding to dpg’s point about the woman’s influence. Yes, it’s very similar to the personal experience you mentioned.
The gang members were vulnerable and needy due to poverty and oppression and she offered the only ray of hope so it’s not like they were spoiled for choice. Talking about her in hindsight, some say she was an angel and some say she was the devil in disguise.
I suspect most people have hidden sides to their character waiting to be discovered. So, one day, she’s a trainee accountant walking into a store during a hold-up and twenty minutes later she’s found her life’s vocation and she’s a wanted felon, having teamed up with the guy robbing the store.
So who knows when a person will stumble across their biggest turn-on? I’m talking to you, dpg.
Talking about screenwriting and film-making: it’s important to know the rules. Just like it’s important for all fine artists to study drawing. But when you begin your artistic life you throw the rule book away because it’s the only way to do anything of real value. Now, everything I’ve been saying in this thread is from the perspective of a director who also writes so I have absolutely no problem sticking to my guns all day long.
“…I have absolutely no problem sticking to my guns all day long.”
Which begs the question, why ask for advice if you don’t want advice?
Just curious?
“…I have absolutely no problem sticking to my guns all day long.”
Which begs the question, why ask for advice if you don’t want advice?
Just curious?
But RichieV, the whole point of discussing things is to weigh various options – which I’ve done – and then you choose what best suits your intention and then you stick with it.
At first I was happy to explore the whole priest and his former sweetheart logline – I appreciate your help with that and I did thank you – but as I explained it didn’t ring true to the script.
So then I presented something less dynamic but more accurate. This was tweaked with advice from dpg and is now looking pretty good but could still be improved.
Some people in this thread – for whatever reasons – don’t follow the logic behind these developments and think I don’t know what I’m about – which can be irritating when they keep banging on – and so I was just letting them know what’s what.
But RichieV, the whole point of discussing things is to weigh various options – which I’ve done – and then you choose what best suits your intention and then you stick with it.
At first I was happy to explore the whole priest and his former sweetheart logline – I appreciate your help with that and I did thank you – but as I explained it didn’t ring true to the script.
So then I presented something less dynamic but more accurate. This was tweaked with advice from dpg and is now looking pretty good but could still be improved.
Some people in this thread – for whatever reasons – don’t follow the logic behind these developments and think I don’t know what I’m about – which can be irritating when they keep banging on – and so I was just letting them know what’s what.
Is anyone interested in movies about vivid dreams? Not ‘ Inception’ but movies like ‘ Mullholland Drive’ and ‘Open Your Eyes’ – not the remake, ‘Vanilla Sky’.
Is anyone interested in movies about vivid dreams? Not ‘ Inception’ but movies like ‘ Mullholland Drive’ and ‘Open Your Eyes’ – not the remake, ‘Vanilla Sky’.
I do lucid dreaming, if that’s what you have in mind. (And I am writing a script ‘inspired by’ an event and a series of lucid dreams I had while working for the LAPD.)
Why do you ask?
I do lucid dreaming, if that’s what you have in mind. (And I am writing a script ‘inspired by’ an event and a series of lucid dreams I had while working for the LAPD.)
Why do you ask?
I’m a (deeply) closeted rebel myself. I think that every rule about everything is made to be broken under certain circumstances. But I also think one has to know the rules — which is to say master the rules — before one can know when to break them and how, wisely.
Or as my Latin teacher would say: pecca fortiter — sin bravely– but also pecca sapienter— sin wisely.
(It is my observation that a lot of people would prefer to just break the rules without first investing the time and effort to master them.)
I would also like to clarify where I come down on the the plot versus character question. I think it’s a false dichotomy. To my way of thinking they are two sides of the same coin. As in the Tao where yin and yang co-exist in opposition. A good script needs both plot AND character, and usually in equal proportions.
A logline emphasizes plot with but an adjective or two about a character’s flaw or strength. That’s the madness of the method and I see no prospect that the convention will change: it reflects the nature of show business and human nature. The first thing most people want to know about a script is not who the characters are, but what the plot is — what’s the roller coaster ride they are (vicariously) being cajoled to take.
My 2.5 cents worth.
I’m a (deeply) closeted rebel myself. I think that every rule about everything is made to be broken under certain circumstances. But I also think one has to know the rules — which is to say master the rules — before one can know when to break them and how, wisely.
Or as my Latin teacher would say: pecca fortiter — sin bravely– but also pecca sapienter— sin wisely.
(It is my observation that a lot of people would prefer to just break the rules without first investing the time and effort to master them.)
I would also like to clarify where I come down on the the plot versus character question. I think it’s a false dichotomy. To my way of thinking they are two sides of the same coin. As in the Tao where yin and yang co-exist in opposition. A good script needs both plot AND character, and usually in equal proportions.
A logline emphasizes plot with but an adjective or two about a character’s flaw or strength. That’s the madness of the method and I see no prospect that the convention will change: it reflects the nature of show business and human nature. The first thing most people want to know about a script is not who the characters are, but what the plot is — what’s the roller coaster ride they are (vicariously) being cajoled to take.
My 2.5 cents worth.
Hi dpg,
I’m thinking of writing about time travel in lucid dreams. Do you like ‘Mulholland Drive’ and ‘Open Your Eyes’ ? I love movies that switch back and forth between dream and reality. Also I’ve been reading a fictional book about Einstein’s dreams exploring his theory of time. Do you know of any other movies on the subject of vivid dreams?
Hi dpg,
I’m thinking of writing about time travel in lucid dreams. Do you like ‘Mulholland Drive’ and ‘Open Your Eyes’ ? I love movies that switch back and forth between dream and reality. Also I’ve been reading a fictional book about Einstein’s dreams exploring his theory of time. Do you know of any other movies on the subject of vivid dreams?
kbfilmworks,
I was not impressed with either of the titles you mentioned — my dreams were so much more dramatic, more emotionally intense and paradoxical. And I can’t recall any other I would commend to your attention.
IMHO: if you’re serious about writing a story in which lucid dreaming is a central plot device, then I think you would benefit more from first hand experience than any book or movie. Take the plunge into your own dream life. Trust your own experience — accept no substitutes or second hand testimony.
Don’t get me started on this topic! (But if you want to, check out the directory, contact me via Facebook.)
kbfilmworks,
I was not impressed with either of the titles you mentioned — my dreams were so much more dramatic, more emotionally intense and paradoxical. And I can’t recall any other I would commend to your attention.
IMHO: if you’re serious about writing a story in which lucid dreaming is a central plot device, then I think you would benefit more from first hand experience than any book or movie. Take the plunge into your own dream life. Trust your own experience — accept no substitutes or second hand testimony.
Don’t get me started on this topic! (But if you want to, check out the directory, contact me via Facebook.)
Dpg, I don’t know. You’re suggesting that experience trumps imagination and research when it comes to storytelling. So where are all these really great cop movies written by former LAPD officers?
Dpg, I don’t know. You’re suggesting that experience trumps imagination and research when it comes to storytelling. So where are all these really great cop movies written by former LAPD officers?
Kdfilmworks.
Your welcome to post your concepts and ask for feedback then take away what you will from the responding members.
It is not however your prerogative to tell anyone “…what’s what.” if you choose to acknowledge only feedback that aligns with your personal opinions then do so.
However, also show due respect to ALL those that took the time to respond to you.
We all want to learn and help each other and I would hate for people to not post feedback due to fear of being described as “…irritating…” for not providing the correct kind of feedback the writer wanted.
This is an open and friendly forum that benefits from the variety of opinions provided. That is what makes this such a good resource for writers so best to keep it that way.
Your friend, Nir.
Kdfilmworks.
Your welcome to post your concepts and ask for feedback then take away what you will from the responding members.
It is not however your prerogative to tell anyone “…what’s what.” if you choose to acknowledge only feedback that aligns with your personal opinions then do so.
However, also show due respect to ALL those that took the time to respond to you.
We all want to learn and help each other and I would hate for people to not post feedback due to fear of being described as “…irritating…” for not providing the correct kind of feedback the writer wanted.
This is an open and friendly forum that benefits from the variety of opinions provided. That is what makes this such a good resource for writers so best to keep it that way.
Your friend, Nir.
Kdfilmworks.
Your welcome to post your concepts and ask for feedback then take away what you will from the responding members.
It is not however your prerogative to tell anyone “…what’s what.” if you choose to acknowledge only feedback that aligns with your personal opinions then do so.
However, also show due respect to ALL those that took the time to respond to you.
We all want to learn and help each other and I would hate for people to not post feedback due to fear of being described as “…irritating…” for not providing the correct kind of feedback the writer wanted.
This is an open and friendly forum that benefits from the variety of opinions provided. That is what makes this such a good resource for writers so best to keep it that way.
Your friend, Nir.
Kdfilmworks.
Your welcome to post your concepts and ask for feedback then take away what you will from the responding members.
It is not however your prerogative to tell anyone “…what’s what.” if you choose to acknowledge only feedback that aligns with your personal opinions then do so.
However, also show due respect to ALL those that took the time to respond to you.
We all want to learn and help each other and I would hate for people to not post feedback due to fear of being described as “…irritating…” for not providing the correct kind of feedback the writer wanted.
This is an open and friendly forum that benefits from the variety of opinions provided. That is what makes this such a good resource for writers so best to keep it that way.
Your friend, Nir.
You posit a dichotomy, an either/or I never intended. I’m saying employ both experience and imagination. And I consider personal experience as an aspect of research. [As Sigmund Freud noted, in dreams the logical contraries,dichotomies, either/or distinctions of waking life dissolve into both — yeah, Tao moments.]
But if I have to choose between trusting my own experience or the contrary judgement of some “authority” as to what my dreams mean, I always go with my experience.
>> where are all the good movies by LAPD Officers
Well, there is “The Onion Field” by Detective Joseph Wambaugh. Where are all the good movies written by non-LAPD officers? I can’t think of any I was impressed with since “L.A. Confidential” — which is set in the smoggy past.
Oh, and all the cop procedurals on TV hire cops as consultants. And I think it safe to conclude that some of the staff writers are ex-cops
You posit a dichotomy, an either/or I never intended. I’m saying employ both experience and imagination. And I consider personal experience as an aspect of research. [As Sigmund Freud noted, in dreams the logical contraries,dichotomies, either/or distinctions of waking life dissolve into both — yeah, Tao moments.]
But if I have to choose between trusting my own experience or the contrary judgement of some “authority” as to what my dreams mean, I always go with my experience.
>> where are all the good movies by LAPD Officers
Well, there is “The Onion Field” by Detective Joseph Wambaugh. Where are all the good movies written by non-LAPD officers? I can’t think of any I was impressed with since “L.A. Confidential” — which is set in the smoggy past.
Oh, and all the cop procedurals on TV hire cops as consultants. And I think it safe to conclude that some of the staff writers are ex-cops
Nir, it’s all well and good to act injured and innocent but sometimes you miss the point being made and other times feel the need to elucidate on unrelated subjects. I’m as tolerant as the next guy but when the verbiage extends to several paragraphs anyone would lose patience. It’s an internet thread so brief and to the point is helpful.
Nir, it’s all well and good to act injured and innocent but sometimes you miss the point being made and other times feel the need to elucidate on unrelated subjects. I’m as tolerant as the next guy but when the verbiage extends to several paragraphs anyone would lose patience. It’s an internet thread so brief and to the point is helpful.
Correction: Freud said there is no negation in the unconscious. And time is …timeless.
Correction: Freud said there is no negation in the unconscious. And time is …timeless.
Oh sweet irony.
Oh sweet irony.
Nir…lol.
I know I said I’d leave this thread well and truly behind — but as I have noticed you HAVE actually taken on some of the feedback in the latest iteration of the logline (and lo and behold, it’s starting to make some sense…) I can’t resist:
“…only hope for escape” — is this an actual PHYSICAL escape from the prison, or a more metaphysical escape from a likely Hell if she does not ask for forgiveness? Clarity on this is crucial to an understanding of the TYPE of film this is…genre or what-have-you (although — apparently this doesn’t matter, cos you just have to explain the film to your cast and crew, who are already apparently familiar with the project… which means I’m completely baffled as to why your posting it here at all…)
If you want to make the logline even more appealing, or show that you’re a savvy, efficient, professional screenwriter (oh, I meant DIRECTOR that writes screenplays…) you could cut down the word count a tad — it’s currently at 44 words and two sentences — I reckon, now that I have a better idea of the story (well, kinda…) you could get this to one sentence and under 30 words (this is my take based upon a PHYSICAL escape from the prison…):
An incarcerated charismatic bank robber must convince her childhood sweetheart -the prison’s Priest, to help her and her murderous gang escape before they are all executed at dawn.
Nir…lol.
I know I said I’d leave this thread well and truly behind — but as I have noticed you HAVE actually taken on some of the feedback in the latest iteration of the logline (and lo and behold, it’s starting to make some sense…) I can’t resist:
“…only hope for escape” — is this an actual PHYSICAL escape from the prison, or a more metaphysical escape from a likely Hell if she does not ask for forgiveness? Clarity on this is crucial to an understanding of the TYPE of film this is…genre or what-have-you (although — apparently this doesn’t matter, cos you just have to explain the film to your cast and crew, who are already apparently familiar with the project… which means I’m completely baffled as to why your posting it here at all…)
If you want to make the logline even more appealing, or show that you’re a savvy, efficient, professional screenwriter (oh, I meant DIRECTOR that writes screenplays…) you could cut down the word count a tad — it’s currently at 44 words and two sentences — I reckon, now that I have a better idea of the story (well, kinda…) you could get this to one sentence and under 30 words (this is my take based upon a PHYSICAL escape from the prison…):
An incarcerated charismatic bank robber must convince her childhood sweetheart -the prison’s Priest, to help her and her murderous gang escape before they are all executed at dawn.
….or — going down the spiritual/ metaphysical route:
A murderous bank robber on death row must forgive her ex lover, the prison’s Priest, for jilting her, if he is to save her soul by administering her the last rites.
Long way from perfect (but I think this is the jist of your premise? But I’m still a bit confused — Isn’t it the duty of Catholic Priest’s to forgive those on death row regardless of the criminal asking for forgiveness for their crimes..?) — but I think you can do away with your current first sentence, as well as “When they meet again…” Simply by stating that he’s her ex (or childhood sweetheart or whatever…) is enough to suggest that they have a past… or are meeting again etc…
….or — going down the spiritual/ metaphysical route:
A murderous bank robber on death row must forgive her ex lover, the prison’s Priest, for jilting her, if he is to save her soul by administering her the last rites.
Long way from perfect (but I think this is the jist of your premise? But I’m still a bit confused — Isn’t it the duty of Catholic Priest’s to forgive those on death row regardless of the criminal asking for forgiveness for their crimes..?) — but I think you can do away with your current first sentence, as well as “When they meet again…” Simply by stating that he’s her ex (or childhood sweetheart or whatever…) is enough to suggest that they have a past… or are meeting again etc…
Hours before her execution by firing squad, a notorious female gangster makes one last request: to have her confession heard by the priest who was once her lover.
29 words. A suggested plot spine on which to arrange all the yada-yada.
(And in my Pavlovian conditioned Hollyweird mind that’s the sizzle.)
Hours before her execution by firing squad, a notorious female gangster makes one last request: to have her confession heard by the priest who was once her lover.
29 words. A suggested plot spine on which to arrange all the yada-yada.
(And in my Pavlovian conditioned Hollyweird mind that’s the sizzle.)
Sorry Tony, but I can tell you’ve skipped a large section of the thread. Logline revisions have been posted on the thread more recently. So you can either read through and follow the developing thoughtline or I can just cut to the chase, in which case:
“Members of a notorious armed robbery gang about to face the firing squad look back and tell of life struggling under poverty and oppression and the charismatic woman who led them to a life of mayhem, murder and easy money.”
This revision derives from my need for a logline that’s an accurate description of the screenplay. And, not caring whether or not it ‘sizzles’ or is plotted in kingly fashion. Having said that, it could still be improved.
It’s a multiple protagonist narrative so the gang is the main character and the goal is psychological: looking back to the past in the face of imminent death in search of meaning or understanding of their journey through life.
dpg provided a Samuel Johnson quote that underlines this: paraphrasing – imminent death has a wonderful way of concentrating the mind.
I think it’s safe to say hardly anyone one commenting on this thread is enthused by this approach which is OK since they won’t have to share in the labour of making it into a film or pay to see it when it’s done (ha ha).
Sorry Tony, but I can tell you’ve skipped a large section of the thread. Logline revisions have been posted on the thread more recently. So you can either read through and follow the developing thoughtline or I can just cut to the chase, in which case:
“Members of a notorious armed robbery gang about to face the firing squad look back and tell of life struggling under poverty and oppression and the charismatic woman who led them to a life of mayhem, murder and easy money.”
This revision derives from my need for a logline that’s an accurate description of the screenplay. And, not caring whether or not it ‘sizzles’ or is plotted in kingly fashion. Having said that, it could still be improved.
It’s a multiple protagonist narrative so the gang is the main character and the goal is psychological: looking back to the past in the face of imminent death in search of meaning or understanding of their journey through life.
dpg provided a Samuel Johnson quote that underlines this: paraphrasing – imminent death has a wonderful way of concentrating the mind.
I think it’s safe to say hardly anyone one commenting on this thread is enthused by this approach which is OK since they won’t have to share in the labour of making it into a film or pay to see it when it’s done (ha ha).
>>hardly anyone one commenting on this thread is enthused by this approach
And what does that say?
Isn’t the objective goal of a logline to get someone to read the script?
It seems you have a dilemma: you can write a logline to your own personal specs, or you can write one that gets people to want to read the script. But not both. If you can’t satisfy both conditions, which option are you going to chose?
How can you get anyone to share “in the labour of making it into a film” if you can’t first get them to read the script?
I empathize with your predicament. I am working on 2 scripts and am wrestling with a similar dilemma. I can write loglines that perfectly describe the plot — or I can write ones that focus on some sizzle. But it seems I can’t do both.
I will shamelessly take the 2nd option. I prefer to make a movie than make a stand for absolute accuracy in 30 words. It’s only a [expletive deleted] logline — not a binding legal affidavit made under oath!
>>hardly anyone one commenting on this thread is enthused by this approach
And what does that say?
Isn’t the objective goal of a logline to get someone to read the script?
It seems you have a dilemma: you can write a logline to your own personal specs, or you can write one that gets people to want to read the script. But not both. If you can’t satisfy both conditions, which option are you going to chose?
How can you get anyone to share “in the labour of making it into a film” if you can’t first get them to read the script?
I empathize with your predicament. I am working on 2 scripts and am wrestling with a similar dilemma. I can write loglines that perfectly describe the plot — or I can write ones that focus on some sizzle. But it seems I can’t do both.
I will shamelessly take the 2nd option. I prefer to make a movie than make a stand for absolute accuracy in 30 words. It’s only a [expletive deleted] logline — not a binding legal affidavit made under oath!
dpg, does this new tweak offer sufficient sizzle?
“Two childhood sweethearts follow different paths: she becomes the charismatic leader of a notorious armed robbery gang about to face the firing squad and he is the devout priest offering last rites and confession and she needs him to help them escape.”
OR
“The charismatic leader of a notorious armed robbery gang about to face the firing squad must convince her childhood sweetheart – the devout priest offering last rites and confession ? to help the gang escape.”
dpg, does this new tweak offer sufficient sizzle?
“Two childhood sweethearts follow different paths: she becomes the charismatic leader of a notorious armed robbery gang about to face the firing squad and he is the devout priest offering last rites and confession and she needs him to help them escape.”
OR
“The charismatic leader of a notorious armed robbery gang about to face the firing squad must convince her childhood sweetheart – the devout priest offering last rites and confession ? to help the gang escape.”
Please clarify their past relationship. I notice that in all the iterations, whenever some of us imply or explicitly state that they were more than just sweethearts, that they were lovers, you have reverted to the “sweetheart” tag to describe their earlier relationship.
Is it your concept that they were never lovers, that whatever romantic current flowed between them was never consummated? And if that is the case, what is your reasoning for that choice?
Please clarify their past relationship. I notice that in all the iterations, whenever some of us imply or explicitly state that they were more than just sweethearts, that they were lovers, you have reverted to the “sweetheart” tag to describe their earlier relationship.
Is it your concept that they were never lovers, that whatever romantic current flowed between them was never consummated? And if that is the case, what is your reasoning for that choice?
dpg, as far as I know sweethearts means lovers – are you a time traveler from the 19th century or something?
dpg, as far as I know sweethearts means lovers – are you a time traveler from the 19th century or something?
I don’t know what difference the connotations “sweethearts” and “lovers” convey on your side of the Atlantic pond, but on my side “sweethearts” weakly suggests their relationship was also sexual, whereas “lovers” strongly suggests it was. Otherwise I would not have inquired.
So if someday cruel and capricious fortune should compel you to pitch your story on this side of the pond to Hollyweird, I advise using the word “lovers”. fwiw.
As for your latest iterations, I’ll have to ruminate.
I don’t know what difference the connotations “sweethearts” and “lovers” convey on your side of the Atlantic pond, but on my side “sweethearts” weakly suggests their relationship was also sexual, whereas “lovers” strongly suggests it was. Otherwise I would not have inquired.
So if someday cruel and capricious fortune should compel you to pitch your story on this side of the pond to Hollyweird, I advise using the word “lovers”. fwiw.
As for your latest iterations, I’ll have to ruminate.
From what I gather after reading this thread, in order to capture the essence of this story, the logline needs to include not just the conflict between the girl and the priest, but the plight of the gang members as well.
Here’s my take based on my interpretation of story, fwiw:
“The charismatic leader of a notorious robbery gang facing imminent execution struggles to convince a devout priest ? her childhood lover ? to save their souls, as the gang members reevaluate their lives in search of redemption.”
Hope this helps
From what I gather after reading this thread, in order to capture the essence of this story, the logline needs to include not just the conflict between the girl and the priest, but the plight of the gang members as well.
Here’s my take based on my interpretation of story, fwiw:
“The charismatic leader of a notorious robbery gang facing imminent execution struggles to convince a devout priest ? her childhood lover ? to save their souls, as the gang members reevaluate their lives in search of redemption.”
Hope this helps
Thanks gilgamesh, I totally agree with you – it needs to include both situations – the plight of the gang and the conflict between the woman and the priest. I would also add that it’s important that the gang is seen as the main character because in the script they all get roughly the same amount of attention.
“Members of a notorious robbery gang facing imminent execution re-evaluate their lives in search of redemption as a devout priest offers last rites and confession. The priest and the gang’s charismatic leader must also come to terms with their shared past as childhood sweethearts.”
OR
Members of a notorious robbery gang facing imminent execution recall the incredible events that shaped their destiny as a devout priest offers last rites and confession. The priest must also come to terms with his own past as he struggles to make peace with the gang?s charismatic leader, his childhood sweetheart.”
Thanks gilgamesh, I totally agree with you – it needs to include both situations – the plight of the gang and the conflict between the woman and the priest. I would also add that it’s important that the gang is seen as the main character because in the script they all get roughly the same amount of attention.
“Members of a notorious robbery gang facing imminent execution re-evaluate their lives in search of redemption as a devout priest offers last rites and confession. The priest and the gang’s charismatic leader must also come to terms with their shared past as childhood sweethearts.”
OR
Members of a notorious robbery gang facing imminent execution recall the incredible events that shaped their destiny as a devout priest offers last rites and confession. The priest must also come to terms with his own past as he struggles to make peace with the gang?s charismatic leader, his childhood sweetheart.”
kbfilmworks, if the woman is not the central character in your ensemble story, then the logline can be easily retooled to bring the main characters to the forefront, just as you’ve done in your two examples.
Since the objective of your logline is to explain your story rather than to use it as a marketing tool to sell your script, you may not be as concerned with making your logline succinct (25-35 words) and enticing. If that’s the case, then whichever of the two examples you posted best describes the major throughline of your dramatic narrative is the one you’ll want to go with.
If you’d like to try to make your logline conform to the more conventional “pitch” format, you might consider something like this:
“Facing their imminent execution, members of a notorious robbery gang recall and reevaluate their lives as they try to convince a devout priest, who was once the childhood sweetheart of their charismatic leader, to redeem their souls.”
kbfilmworks, if the woman is not the central character in your ensemble story, then the logline can be easily retooled to bring the main characters to the forefront, just as you’ve done in your two examples.
Since the objective of your logline is to explain your story rather than to use it as a marketing tool to sell your script, you may not be as concerned with making your logline succinct (25-35 words) and enticing. If that’s the case, then whichever of the two examples you posted best describes the major throughline of your dramatic narrative is the one you’ll want to go with.
If you’d like to try to make your logline conform to the more conventional “pitch” format, you might consider something like this:
“Facing their imminent execution, members of a notorious robbery gang recall and reevaluate their lives as they try to convince a devout priest, who was once the childhood sweetheart of their charismatic leader, to redeem their souls.”
—–
“Facing the firing squad, a notorious gang recall their exploits to the devout priest offering confession while their leader rebels against the padre who was also her high school sweetheart.”
—–
Hope that helped.
—–
“Facing the firing squad, a notorious gang recall their exploits to the devout priest offering confession while their leader rebels against the padre who was also her high school sweetheart.”
—–
Hope that helped.
I’ve just done some digging and it seems multi-strand narratives don’t often have dramatic or exciting loglines. Films like ‘Pulp Fiction’ and ‘Star Wars’ have been offered as examples.
Right now, there’s quite a few variations to choose from so I think the best thing for me to do is to step back for a few days and then take a fresh look and decide which one is best suited for purpose.
Guys, many thanks and much appreciation for all the comments. There’s no way I could have explored so many different approaches working in isolation.
I’ve just done some digging and it seems multi-strand narratives don’t often have dramatic or exciting loglines. Films like ‘Pulp Fiction’ and ‘Star Wars’ have been offered as examples.
Right now, there’s quite a few variations to choose from so I think the best thing for me to do is to step back for a few days and then take a fresh look and decide which one is best suited for purpose.
Guys, many thanks and much appreciation for all the comments. There’s no way I could have explored so many different approaches working in isolation.